The Orange Islands Regional Revamp Project

Discussion in 'RPG News & Discussion' started by Zenith, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. Zenith

    Zenith No Ordinary Swordsman

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    Oh. I guess I got confused about which effects activated Sheer Force. So there wouldn't be concern that beating a Dark specialist would revolve around resisting a Fire attack.

    Potentially, though, this could lead to the opposite problem: Dimitri being too easy. Compared to most first gym aces, the 320-BST Emblit isn't much to write home about. Without a freakishly strong boosted Incinerate, it loses a lot of its potential strength, and there's still the chance Incinerate gets moved to somewhere past Level 12 on its Gen 6 levelset, which would make it even more underwhelming.

    Yes, there's one glaring exception in Cheren's Lillupup, with its 275 BST. However, it's still harder to take down than an Emblit that isn't in danger of one-shotting anything it outspeeds. Lillipup has one weakness, and early Unova was designed to make that weakness hard to exploit; the only way to get a Fighting move that early was to catch a Riolu and overlevel it to 15. Emblit, on the other hand, has four weaknesses, and there are at least three viable Water types that show up in the wild by then (Telaqua, Siron, Kelpp), two of which can deal SE damage to Emblit without fear of getting hit SE back. It's important because his gym was intended to be one where none of the starters would have an inherent advantage, but a part Fire ace would not accomplish that.

    Kitsu, you said that the triplets should show newcomers that it's a bad idea to face boss trainers as soon as you get to their location. But if Dimitri's roster is one mon that can't viably use his signature move and another with an easily exploited weakness and that, unlike I originally believed, isn't a threat to massacre anything it outspeeds, players might actually be able to beat him as soon as they get to Tarroco. It's the wrong kind of precedent.
     
  2. Kitsune_XIII

    Kitsune_XIII Composer Ampereon

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    I didn't say it should, I said that most figured it out as a result of it.

    I'm still far more in favor of dropping Paradisea knowing what I learned as a mod, that 90% of the time its the crit-hax that screws players over in that fight. Even with weaker crits (once we fix that in the calc), with them happening more frequently it won't matter.
     
  3. Timeblaze

    Timeblaze I'm supposed to hold it by the sharp end, right?

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    So from what I'm gathering, the main issue with Paradisea is that its ability, Super Luck, means that it can simply overpower its opponents with one or two lucky crits. Well, if Super Luck was changed to a different ability, than that could be solved... but Paradisea's only other ability, Pressure, is in no way better, because making the opponent miss more often would only increase Paradisea's brokenness. So, neither Super Luck or Pressure are balanced.

    ...but what if Paradisea had another ability, besides Super Luck or Pressure? I'm aware that I'm not on the EPIC Team and have no authority in terms of Pokemons' abilities, and that this isn't the place to discuss it, but giving Paradisea a less broken ability would solve a lot of problems. If Paradisea had a near-useless ability, like say, Big Pecks or Telepathy, then it would essentially have no ability, and would be much more manageable. A useless ability combined with a nerf to Lv. 12 (thus a loss of Faint Attack) would mean that newer trainers could fight it with a much better chance of defeating it. It would even make sense flavor-wise, due to Paradisea's counterpart, Silkrane, having two natural abilities (Early Bird and Serene Grace) while Paradisea only has Super Luck.

    What does everyone else think? Would swapping Paradisea's Super Luck out for a new, useless ability make it balanced?
     
  4. Chimera

    Chimera Minor Junior Private Negative First Class

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    If the real issue is the crit-hax (which it generally seems to be?), we could just slap another ability on it when it goes through Gen 6 EPIC, like Gale Wings Competitive (...that might be evil in its own way, actually) or Keen Eye, or even just Early Bird like Silkrane gets (why does Silkrane get two main abilities while Paradisea just gets one?). Pressure (its HA) might not even be that bad, it would just dissuade players from trying to set up on his first Pokémon (if Paradisea's getting the ace slot back, I like Lunelle for that slot, personally). I was shooting to make Dimitri easier, but I guess just killing off the crit hax and the level nerf might be enough to accomplish that.

    (and then Timeblaze just Mininja'd me to the same idea. props.)

    My defense for Cissy's levels are that there is one area between the two gyms. If we cram in another town and route between Tarocco and Mikan for other shenanigans, then I would concede that that level range is too minimal, but players don't really have much opportunity to train between point A and point B (not to mention the suggested Dimitri lineup would have probably left trainers a bit underleveled anyway): there's a lot of natural training area on the paths between the first and second gyms in most regions that don't require anything more than battling available trainers (only possible exceptions being Hoenn and West Unova). So at least in my opinion, trainers early on ought to be able to at least have a chance against the gym leaders just based on completing trainer reqs on the areas between, as well as any available sidequests with their own reward: just asking for extra trainers in the city is the RPG equivalent of level grinding, which I'm, if not trying to avoid entirely, at least trying to move a bit farther into the RPG, they're far enough entrenched the added tedium doesn't scare them off (not to mention the variety of team missions and the like would offer more enjoyable ways to get that training in).

    Short version: Mikan is earlier in the region progression than any second gym city to date not named Virbank (all of the rest are either later than the fourth town, or have some sort of large route area with lots of trainers conducive to training; unless we up the trainer reqs for the GIs, we don't really have anything that qualifies), and levelgrinding is far more tedious here than in the games, where it is already tedious. I'm okay with making the early gyms too easy if it keeps new members around long enough for them to get hooked, so personally I stand by the level 16 gym ace. I guess I can see boosting it a bit, since more early Pokémon have types geared toward beating Telazure than Paradisea, but...eh.
     
  5. Haas

    Haas The Master of the Night Administrator

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    Also remember Pressure is only a one time activation like intimidate now so it would not be too broken
     
  6. Angel Knight Phil

    Angel Knight Phil Drag-on Dragoon Pummelo Moderator

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    Zenith, can you pick one side and stick to it please? Arguing with you in this topic is like arguing with four people.

    And let's talk about that "too easy" thing. I'm all about making difficult trainers that require skill to beat, but I'm pretty sure having an Emblit ace is fine in terms of power curving. This stops people from spending six months grinding to Tarroco just so they can outlast the hax.

    Also agree with raising Cissy's Ace to 18.

    Even less okay with Pressure Paradisea than I am with Super Luck Paradisea.
     
  7. Chimera

    Chimera Minor Junior Private Negative First Class

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    Possible new solution: what about Lunelle? Changes from the EPIC meeting made it less absurdly frail than it was (the main reason I didn't suggest it as the ace), and it got Super Luck for an ability. Throw in the similar secondary weak STAB - Mana Spark offers better coverage than Gust does, but not against early-game mon - and it basically plays like a miniature Paradisea. A bit weaker, a bit frailer, doesn't laugh at a specific starter type like Paradisea or Emblit would, but also doesn't cave instantaneously to a common early-RPG type (Bug doesn't really count, considering their lack of STAB): the only super-effective move without promos factored in that early on is Lunafly's level 12 Fairy Wind, keeping Lunelle from being a total pushover. So...

    [10] :lemaul: [Defiant]
    [12] :lunelle: [Super Luck]

    ?

    Oh, also Dimitri's new CA team:

    [X] :paradisea: ( :lansat: ) [Super Luck]
    [X] :honchkrow: ( :lansat: ) [Super Luck]
    [X] :gazalaxy: ( :lansat: ) [Super Luck]
    [X] :absogno: ( :lansat: ) [Super Luck]

    (Gym field effect, if we do those for non-Amaya CA gyms for kicks: critical hit rate of all moves used, friend and foe, is raised by one stage.)
     
  8. Kitsune_XIII

    Kitsune_XIII Composer Ampereon

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    I like that team for Dimitri.
     
  9. Roxas

    Roxas Prince of the Stars Administrator

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  10. Timeblaze

    Timeblaze I'm supposed to hold it by the sharp end, right?

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    I suppose I could live with that team being used.
     
  11. Zenith

    Zenith No Ordinary Swordsman

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    Actually, I like that idea too, with yesterday's changes to the Lunelle line. Reasonably threatening without being overly so or having an overcentralizing attack, and no easily exploited weakness.
     
  12. Haas

    Haas The Master of the Night Administrator

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    I like that team too.
     
  13. Haas

    Haas The Master of the Night Administrator

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    Is there anything else that needs to be discussed about OI. Because if not I say we start to implement these changes
     
  14. Haas

    Haas The Master of the Night Administrator

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    Not really a discussion kick but just a question about if we can start making these changes right away.
     
  15. Timeblaze

    Timeblaze I'm supposed to hold it by the sharp end, right?

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    Given the changes in level to Dimitri/Cissy, it might also be a good idea to start talking about Alyssa/Danny's levels, and whether their teams need to be changed or not.
     
  16. Chimera

    Chimera Minor Junior Private Negative First Class

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    Alyssa's levels are surprisingly reasonable (ace is at 26: could be dropped to 25, but it's not a massive issue), though Canarosa is a bit...imposing for a 3rd gym ace, especially since it would have Roost by that point via Sonnest, which makes it nigh unkillable at that point. Perhaps Gorphibius could be poached from the Pinkan Island sidequest to fill that slot, though its only Grass STAB at that point would be Absorb. Hrm...perhaps something like:

    [22] :eucoala: [Overgrow]
    [23] :setista: [Water Absorb]
    [25] :leafeon: [Leaf Guard]

    Or maybe a Gorphibius (instead of Leafeon) that's been tutored Nature Song or Crop Circle or something?

    Danny, on the other hand, could probably need that level cut a bit more: he jumps seven levels from Alyssa (8, if we drop her ace to 25) despite there being just one area separating them. His team was also massively buffed by EPIC to the point of being a bit overpowering for the area. Maybe:

    [28] :cosmion: [Synchronize]
    [29] :lapras: [Shell Armor]
    [30] :blizzaram: [Ice Body]
    [31] :nevrimore: [Levitate]
     
  17. Haas

    Haas The Master of the Night Administrator

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    I'm fine with both of those.
     
  18. Angel Knight Phil

    Angel Knight Phil Drag-on Dragoon Pummelo Moderator

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    Canarosa would have Roost and...uh, what else?
     
  19. Zenith

    Zenith No Ordinary Swordsman

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    Personally, I'm okay with Alyssa's roster. There could be a couple issues, though: I dunno how good of an idea it is to keep a starter in there (only time it happened in canon was with Gardenia, and that was thanks to what Jan called "Accordion Type Syndrome" leaving so few options for Grass types at that point that they had to use Grotle), and isn't it the usual M.O. to have a gym leader's ace be a newly introduced species? Maybe Gorphibius would be better here...

    Danny's roster needs some further adjusting, though. Rabbalanche and Blacier were buffed, but so were Blizzaram, Nevrimore, and returning mon Cosmion. The entire roster is sitting at a 500 BST or higher, and while it's worse overall defensively, it has better coverage. It's arguably just as difficult, and it edges too close to being Drayano-level to be fair for a 4th gym.

    Would this be any more reasonable?

    Levels are closer to Alyssa's because there's only one route in between them. Nevrimore is evolved two levels before its evolution threshold, but gym leaders can pull that off sometimes and it's the only one of his mons that does. >_>
     
  20. Haas

    Haas The Master of the Night Administrator

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    I think the Starter is fine in a Gym. And I also like that Ice Team a lot better.
     

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