The Orange Islands Regional Revamp Project

Discussion in 'RPG News & Discussion' started by Zenith, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. Zenith

    Zenith No Ordinary Swordsman

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    As a discussion over the last few days in the Shoutbox has shown, there is a serious lack of available OImons in the Orange Islands themselves. The routes are plagued with multiple lines that appear everywhere, too many only appearing very late in the region, many lines not appearing at all, and the most egregious case of high level prevos this side of Gen 1 Kanto.

    To quote some research by other members:

    -There are 56 base form Pokémon found in OI, 15 of those base form Pokémon do not evolve, 9 of those non-evolving Pokémon are found Route 217 or later.

    -7 Routes contain Flickadee. One of these Routes is Victory Road. Somehow, something seems wrong with that.

    -There are 87 base form Pokémon, not including legendaries or the Crystal Onix. While yes, these means the majority of Pokémon are in the OI, most of the Pokémon people are looking to use are exclusive to Zeralis.

    -One of these 87 base forms, Ion, can only be gotten through Promos or going to New Island in Kanto.

    -Eevee can only be gotten through the gift that Eono gives you or through Promo

    -Roda, a Pokémon now available in OI, only became available in the last month.

    -Embli, Kyte, and Lumik are not available until Victory Road. If you want to use one, you have to suffer through last minute power grinding or get it through Promo.
    Wild but Late in OI
    Lepski Line
    Nevrena Line
    Ontlam Line
    Artily Line
    Dolventine Line
    Orclata
    Manaton
    Blacier
    Shobash Line
    Tarphalt
    Crimsant
    Infermata Line
    Lumik Line
    Embli Line
    Kyte Line
    Karama
    Kinakra
    Doramizu
    Quartzell
    Centitoe Line

    Not Wild in OI
    Zebrite Line
    Lunelle Line
    Frostlie
    Felare Line
    Toulav Line
    Sonnest Line
    Sygnal Line
    Farfetch'd Line
    Meowth Line
    Hierark Line
    Voltot Line
    Tottem Line
    Ufo Line
    Pamboo
    Kajikami Line
    Shreek Line
    Eevee Line
    Ion Line
    Ponyta Line
    Chatot Line
    Swablu Line
    Dunsparce Line

    There was some brainstorming in chat, some ideas thrown around, and the general consensus was that it'd be a good thing to work on sooner rather than later. There are also some good reasons to have this going on alongside Project Epic, as I'll elaborate on shortly.

    I'm asking for the aid of as much of the staff as possible for a couple reasons. For one, the VIPs haven't had anything to do lately to give them a chance to help out around here. For two, all of us in here have been on the site for considerable time, and we all have at worst a very good idea of how our fakemons are distributed, and possible improvements to them.

    So, let me elaborate a little.

    PURPOSE
    To increase the number and variety of OI/Zeralis Dex Pokémon available in the Orange Islands, reimagine some of the routes, and overall, increase the appeal of the region and make it more than just something most people leave after Mikan.

    METHODS
    -Reduce the number of OIDex Pokémon only available in the "postgame" Zeralis region (Over 60, by my count).
    -Change the wild lists on many routes, limiting the places mons that are extremely common (Pipun, Siron, etc.) appear in place of ones that show up little, if at all.
    -Add new details to some of the routes, giving them additional elements (ruins, etc.) that would justify placing wilds there that wouldn't fit anywhere otherwise.
    -Add new, optional areas to some cities (a la Valencia Field), further giving more Pokémon more places to be found.

    PROCESS
    Start out with a few general ideas, some ideas to take note of or follow. After that, we begin with the first couple routes and go on from there as we finalize them.
     
  2. Zenith

    Zenith No Ordinary Swordsman

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    Finished Routes (201-Millsweet Gardens)

    A short route that winds through the shallows separating Tangelo and Valencia Islands. Its calm waters and laid-back wildlife serve as a first test for new trainers in the region.

    Normal Wilds
    :estar: Flickadee (Lv. 4-5)
    :estar: Pipun (Lv. 4-5)
    :estar: Telaqua (Lv. 4-5)
    :star: Siron (Lv. 4-5)

    With :superrod:
    :estar: Boringler (Lv. TBD)
    :star: :star: Serince (Lv. TBD)

    A calm sector of ocean between Valencia and Tarroco. The small, cliff-laden islands and patches of kelp forest provide shelter for a variety of more docile Pokémon, ideal for beginning trainers.

    Normal Wilds
    :estar: Siron (Lv. 7-9)
    :estar: Flish (Lv. 7-8)
    :star: Kelpp (Lv. 7-9)
    :star: Kyte (Lv. 8-10)
    :star: :star: Borin (Lv. 7-9)
    :star: :star: :star: Lapri (Lv. 9-11)

    With :oldrod:
    :estar: Flish (Lv. 5-6)

    With :goodrod:
    :estar: Flish (Lv. 8-10)
    :star: Borin (Lv. 7-8)

    With :superrod:
    :estar: Boringler (Lv. TBD)
    :star: Serince (Lv. TBD)
    :star: :star: Manaton (Lv. TBD)

    A cluster of seven islands in the northeastern part of the region. They have become a popular tourist destination in recent years due to their open beaches and grapefruit farms, but there are still places to explore and Pokémon to find in the islands' untouched groves and sands.

    Normal Wilds
    :estar: Marmunk (Lv. 11-13)
    :estar: Fluffoon (Lv. 11-13)
    :estar: Gloli (Lv. 10-13)
    :star: Lemaul (Lv. 11-13)
    :star: Wombol (Lv. 11-14)
    :star: :star: Beezil (Lv. 10-12)
    :star: :star: Psibian (Lv. 12-14)
    :star: :star: :star: Farfetch'd (Lv. 11-13)

    A section of mostly calm ocean with low-lying, grassy islands of various sizes and the occasional grove of trees providing shade and nests for birds. The tall fields provide excellent cover for Roda and other small Pokémon.

    Normal Wilds
    :estar: Roda (Lv. 15-17)
    :estar: Pipun (Lv. 15-17)
    :estar: Meowth (Lv. 15-18)
    :star: Pluppy (Lv. 16-18)
    :star: Pikachu (Lv. 15-18)
    :star: :star: Pipawk (Lv. 16-19)
    :star: :star: Rhinolt (Lv. 16-19)
    :star: :star: :star: Chatot (Lv. 15-17)

    With :oldrod:
    :estar: Flish (Lv. 12-14)

    With :goodrod:
    :estar: Flish (Lv. 15-17)
    :star: Borin (Lv. 15-17)
    :star: :star: :star: Chinchou (Lv. 16-18)

    With :superrod:
    :estar: Boringler (Lv. TBD)
    :star: :star: Lanturn (Lv. TBD)

    A solitary, partially forested, sparsely inhabited island used by the locals for farming and ranching. The isle's indigenous fruits are famous for being able to alter the coloration of Pokémon who eat them.

    This area is optional.

    Normal Wilds
    :estar: Marmunk (Lv. 17-19)
    :estar: Pluppy (Lv. 17-19)
    :estar: Rhinolt (Lv. 17-20)
    :star: Flockateal (Lv. 18-20)
    :star: Ponyta (Lv. 17-20)
    :star: :star: Psibian (Lv. 19-21)
    :star: :star: Solafly (Lv. 18-21)
    :star: :star: Lunafly (Lv. 18-21)
    :star: :star: :star: Miltank (Lv. 17-18)
    :star: :star: :star: Tauros (Lv. 17-18)
    :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: Hermog (Lv. 21)

    A long sea route between Pinkan and Millsweet Islands. A volcanic ridge runs along the western portion of most of the route, creating a sort of barrier between the archipelago routes and the open ocean, but its jagged rocks jutting out of the sea and the shallower waters around it were the cause of many shipwrecks in the past. Several large buoy platforms are stationed throughout the route, as well, and trainers enjoy using these to rest or to seek out battles.

    Water-type follower Pokémon are twice as likely to find an item after battle here.

    Normal Wilds
    :estar: Siron (Lv. 18-20)
    :estar: Kelpp (Lv. 19-21)
    :star: Kyte (Lv. 18-20)
    :star: Swablu (Lv. 18-21)
    :star: :star: Lapri (Lv. 19-21)
    :star: :star: Setista (Lv. 21-22)
    :star: :star: :star: Glyder (Lv. 20-22)
    :star: :star: :star: :star: Dolventine (Lv. 19-20)

    With :oldrod:
    :estar: Flish (Lv. 12-15)
    :star: Borin (Lv. 12-15)

    With :goodrod:
    :estar: Flish (Lv. 16-18)
    :estar: Borin (Lv. 16-18)
    :star: :star: Chinchou (Lv. 17-19)

    With :superrod:
    :estar: Boringler (Lv. TBD)
    :star: Serince (Lv. TBD)
    :star: Lanturn (Lv. TBD)
    :star: :star: Dolventine (Lv. TBD)

    Millsweet Island's famous gardens are a popular tourist attraction, and many visitors come to admire its lush plantlife and observe its wild Pokémon. One section of the garden is open to trainers, giving them an opportunity to encounter and capture Pokémon that are rarely seen elsewhere.

    Normal Wilds
    :estar: Roda (Lv. 19-21)
    :estar: Fluffoon (Lv. 19-21)
    :estar: Meowth (Lv. 20-22)
    :star: Gwinna (Lv. 20-22)
    :star: Psibian (Lv. 19-22)
    :star: Aviroon (Lv. 20-22)
    :star: :star: Gloli (Lv. 19-21)
    :star: :star: :star: Sonnest (Lv. 16-17)
    :star: :star: :star: Toulav (Lv. 16-17)
    :star: :star: :star: Sygnal (Lv. 16-17)

    Routes 203 and on (Stupid character limit. >_>)

    Miscellaneous Info

    1. The Grapefruit Thief
    Location: Grapefruit Islands
    Available: At arrival
    Planned Reward: [12] :chitang:
    Notes: The only thing being changed is the Chitang's level.

    2. Power Outage (tentative title)
    Location: Mikan Island
    Available: At arrival
    Planned Reward: [14] :voltot:

    3. Avatar of Adaptation (tentative title)
    Location: Millsweet Island
    Available: Once Alyssa is defeated
    Planned Reward: [??] :eevee:

    4. Visitor from Beyond (tentative title)
    Location: Navel Island
    Available: ?
    Planned Reward: [15] :ufo:
     
  3. Trainer X

    Trainer X They don't think it be like it is, but it do Administrator

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    Too tired to comment on all of this, but I don't know if I like the idea of all of the routes just being smaller island chains; after all, that's the Grapefruit Islands' whole draw. Sure, we can have some of them be that way, but not all. I had a plan a long time back about getting from one island to the next a whole ordeal in itself, but that was scrapped. I think a number of routes could have an island in the middle that you take a ferry too and from (like... 213, I think? The one with Rhinolt), while other routes would be entirely on the ferry itself. You'd get to see sights, fight flying Pokemon from the deck, and, if we fix fishing rod availability, have the water Pokemon available that way.

    Then again, that might be too limiting and repetitive, so feel free to bash that idea as you will.
     
  4. Novoni

    Novoni Destroyer of Phairis

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    I imagined route 201 to be shallow water that you could mostly wade through along with some sandbars dotting it. Some people I know had their characters go in little boats, and that's Ok, too, going farther off the main path the water could get deeper. But I think it adds variety to have routes that are all water for once. And we can add in route descriptions later saying that trainers can rent small boats if they don't have a Lapras/Doramizu/other large water Pokemon to carry, and one or two water routes with one small island in the middle or a little stretch of land with tall grass would be fine. That's not the most important thing right now though, I think right now we should just focus on editing the wilds lists for a route, working through each one until we're happy. Editing in route descriptions afterwards should be pretty straightforward.

    Also, and I could be alone in this thinking, but I'd like to leave some Pokemon exclusive to Zeralis, mainly ones like Lunelle, Zebrite, Felare in Aucklai Plains, and Kajikami and Pamboo by Lake Pacifi, and have those two areas reachable by a sidequest available to anyone in any region after the third badge. To me there's really no location in an island chain that would support those Pokemon, as the first three would want a very large, open field to thrive, and the latter two, being larger creatures, would also thrive better in a more open environment than a relatively small island.

    Eevee sidequst location: Pinkan, Millsweet, or Navel?
    Ufo sidequest location: ??? Navel mountain?
    Voltot sidequest location: ??? (since there's not really a route/cave that he'd fit in?)


    And now revamping wilds lists...

    So uh, I guess we'll start with 202 (201 and the Fields are fine I believe) and maybe work through three or so at a time?. The lists below will be what they currently are, and I'll put my proposed additions in this pretty purple shade


    So yeah, comment/suggest away! Thanks for starting this up Zenith.
     
  5. Zenith

    Zenith No Ordinary Swordsman

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    The problem with having nearly all of them be water routes is that without being able to use different sprites and details to make them feel unique, we run the risk of having them all kind of blur together, which is exactly what we need to avoid. Not to mention that it'd be kind of impractical to have trainers rent single-man motorboats to get around when odds are there's already a ferry system for locals to get around, and it'd be really freakin' hard to get any battles done unless you're using stuff can't fly or swim really well.

    Eh, maybe I'm looking too far into this, but still.

    I get what you're saying there. We just need to make sure these sidequests are available at a reasonable time for those wilds to make sense. A sidequest at Auklai would make sense after the third badge or so, but Pacifi and its higher-stat mons would be a better fit after the 6th or 7th badge.

    As for those wild lists, they look pretty good so far, but not without potential problems. Kelpp and Kyte currently don't learn any STAB until Level 11, which means that on Route 202 they'd be little more than cannon fodder and barely useable if they were caught. Pluppy isn't really a good fit for the GIs, as their speed makes them better fit for plains and hills, not dense jungles. Farfetch'd is pretty damn strong for this early, so that might also be a problem. I'd recommend adding Solafly and Lunafly in their place, since the chrysalis stages are already there. 212 seems like one of those routes without a unifying theme right now, and it shows, as its wilds are all over the place. Chatot might be a hair overpowered, and Meowth seems like a better fit for Millsweet Gardens right now. People also won't have seen the old early birds since 202 at that point, so maybe adding Pipun, Pipawk, and Flockateal wouldn't hurt. I agree with the Good Rod mini-sidequest; about time to get that thing some use around here. >_>
     
  6. Novoni

    Novoni Destroyer of Phairis

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    Ah, I wasn't aware the GIs were that dense. Chatot's strong for early, but perhaps he could go there then as a four-or-five star Pokemon? Farfetch'd can wait for Pinkan or some other later route then, too. Pluppy can move to 212, perhaps, and we could put the butterflies in at three or four stars, I think.

    Kelpp and Kyte I don't have an issue with; they should be pretty close to level 11 at that point, and we can switch their movesets later. And we can add in some whirlpools on some of the water routes, then, or a reef... so yes, that'll be descriptions. And I don't think it would be too unreasonable to have the people in charge of the league want to encourage trainers to go on their own and offer some small rowboats to trainers.

    And where do you want to add the birds back in, route 212? Or later? if we're including Pipun and Pipawk and Flockateal, we should include Flickadee, too, even if the wilds levels would be past its evolution point.
     
  7. Prophet of Wapachu

    Prophet of Wapachu Unofficial Pokédex Coordinator

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    Farfetch'd gets a nice early movepool, but it really isn't much stronger (if even) than Solafly or Lunafly. I think it would work on GIs as long as it's relatively rare. Other than that, I agree with Novi's second paragraph.
     
  8. Zenith

    Zenith No Ordinary Swordsman

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    Hey, we could write 202's islands as a reef area! Give a few wind-blown cliffs for the Kyte line to hang around and some seaweed groves for Kelpp, and they'd fit perfectly there!

    Actually, we should just have Pipawk and Flockateal on 212. The wilds there will probably be around 17-20, and I was under the impression Pipun evolved at 18, not 16, for some reason. >_>

    Small rowboats? It'd take a couple days to get between major islands in those. >_> Every tried to row for half a day straight? It can't be nice.
     
  9. Mysterious

    Mysterious 1337 Speaker News Crew

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    I was thinking for the Voltot, isn't there a place or a town we could put him in, like the munchlax plot in Sandgem.

    That he takes the energy o the city and you need to find the cause of it and you find that little battery creature..
     
  10. Trainer X

    Trainer X They don't think it be like it is, but it do Administrator

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    Just to be clear, the Grapefruit Islands are not dense. The islands are forested, yes, but there's plenty of room to move around, and they certainly don't meet the requirements to be called jungles. And even beyond that, there's a lot of open areas on the islands as well.


    So?


    Single man motorboats would make sense to rent for trainers who want to take their time battling wild Pokemon and other trainers (why can't the Pokemon just stand in the boats to battle?), in my opinion.
     
  11. Angel Knight Phil

    Angel Knight Phil Drag-on Dragoon Pummelo Moderator

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    I think that's a pretty damn good idea. Maybe make that available in say...Mikan?
     
  12. Novoni

    Novoni Destroyer of Phairis

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    So just a random idea I had. Was gonna try to draw it out real quick in paint but I think I'll wait til I have more time and make a real sketch or something. But the point is that there would be these little motorized boats designed for one person (and a small Pokemon) and that's essentially how people would travel the routes that were all water if they didn't have a Lapras or Doramizu or something. Later on, we could even have people pay an extra 500P or something for the 'upgraded' boats, which lets them move quicker and thus eliminates one wild battle from the route requirements.

    But anyway, as I said before, my main concern is the lists themselves at the present time. Sidequests and modes of transportation can be worked out later (But yes, I think something like that will work very well for Voltot). Let's finalize these three routes if we can.

    YNM? Chatot and Farfetch'd could probably be swapped, and feel free to post your own variances and versions.
     
  13. Zenith

    Zenith No Ordinary Swordsman

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    Wow, nice turnout. Let's see if I can respond to all of that without skipping something. >_>

    Aren's idea of a Voltot sidequest is a really good one, since the line doesn't really fit anywhere. The big problem is finding where to add it. Mikan might not be a good fit, since the area just before it has the famous Chitang sidequest, and since Cissy would suddenly get a lot easier when you had a guaranteed Electric type available (compared to the uncommon glass cannon Gloli). If we put it much later, though, it's too weak (especially if we don't buff Toxicell and its lulzy 450 BST, but that's a different story). So...anyone else have suggestions on where the sidequest could go?

    I really like the capsule boats Novi came up with. It actually manages to deal with a lot of potential problems with boat travel while still being futuristic and cool. We could still have larger, uninhabited islands where terrestrial mons would live and trainers that met up could battle.

    Farfetch'd and Chatot look pretty good where they are right now. But what are we going to do with the fishing rods on the earlier routes? We'd need Old and Good Rod lists for 202, at least (even though the Old Rod's list could just be one of the more common Water types at a reduced level).
     
  14. Angel Knight Phil

    Angel Knight Phil Drag-on Dragoon Pummelo Moderator

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    Actually, it could just be Level 5 Flish.
     
  15. Zenith

    Zenith No Ordinary Swordsman

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    But Flish only show up in three routes currently, and the numbers on the routes seem to imply they're only native to a certain section of the region. Why would you be able to fish for them everywhere?
     
  16. Trainer X

    Trainer X They don't think it be like it is, but it do Administrator

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    Because the fact that they're only available in three places is more just a coincidence of planning than an intention to have them only available in a certain area. Don't read too far into the way things are, because we didn't really do it on purpose xD
     
  17. Chaos Shadow

    Chaos Shadow Simmered in awesome sauce

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    The purpose being that it would mirror Magikarp, obviously. They might regularly appear only in certain places, but if you bother fishing for them you'll find them biting rather commonly.

    Flish is, after all, the direct counterpart to Magikarp (as all regions tend to have) so it might as well complete the mirror effect. And give people a better opportunity to try and get Volcronic a little earlier, too. I agree with having it as the general catch for an Old Rod.

    As to the proposition for the Routes themselves, I can't find any issue with them, so I say go on ahead.
     
  18. Phoenixsong

    Phoenixsong Is okay. Obby is often used as punishment.

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    Just saying that "having the pokémon stand on the boat to battle" doesn't solve much if the pokémon in question is very large or if it needs to use a close-range attack against a wild that is not within immediate reach. If we're going all high-tech and fancy with the boats, could we maybe consider a similar solution to the battling on water problem? No particular ideas yet, but yeah, standing on the boat doesn't really do it for those of us who would rather avoid the sort of ridiculousness the games allow in battling in different environments while RPing.

    A thought I had a little while ago: another possible solution for the low-evo wilds in late locations would be to give them more markedly different level ranges. In the games not every wild pokémon in an area is encountered at the same level range, and that doesn't just apply to seekrut pseudolegends like the larvitar in Mt. Silver and Sevault Canyon. Dropping the level ranges of low-evos fixes the problem of their mysterious lack of evolution, and also fixes the "they're not born peregrande thing"—they would naturally occur in the wild where their evolutions do, but this way they can in fact be "younger" and not at the point of evolution. After all, not every wild animal you encounter in an area is going to be the same age. You would have to drop their rarity as well, of course—most of the wilds you encounter in late routes are supposed to be challenging, and it's bad enough that they're low-evo without making them a much lower level on top of that. They wouldn't have to be super-rare because, again, most of them aren't going to be like the larvitar example; just rare enough that players would still encounter the more powerful and relevant pokémon more often, and rare enough to make them believably skittish around the aforementioned giant scary tsunamic, etc..

    Granted, I would rather see greater diversity before lower-level low-evos, so my preference is for replacing the weaker pokémon with things that make more sense. If there's a case where you'd rather not remove an unevolved pokémon, though, then that would be a more authentic option to consider.

    Would also like to say that I have a related proposition to the route description improvements, but since that's really another matter it can wait until then. Mostly just saying something so I don't forget now.

    --

    Anyway! With that bit of jumping around out of the way, onto the actual matter at hand. I'm fine with the proposed changes so far, yes. Should we just start adding actual level ranges to those lists now as well? I know there were eventual plans to add those to OI and Amaya's wild lists the way they've been added to the canon regions; might as well get that out of the way now, right? Seeing a concrete level range would also help give everyone a better idea of when evolution levels/low-evo appearances/etc. need to be tweaked.

    I also like having level 5 flish as the old rod catch everywhere.
     
  19. Zenith

    Zenith No Ordinary Swordsman

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    Alright, a second draft for Route 202, levels included based on the old wild levels thread.

    To explain the levels and rarities a little:
    -Kyte, with its 240 BST, is weaker than any of the other wilds, so its level range was bumped up slightly to compensate.
    -Lapri's range extends to Level 10 because they learn Flail at 10, which makes them more of a potential challenge as well as possibly a more worthy catch.
    -Normally-encountered Flish have the highest range out of anything for two reasons. Those who want to catch one are rewarded for finding one the "hard" way by them starting out higher leveled and thus needing fewer levelups to be useable. Those who don't want one are rewarded indirectly, with more experience points, for running into a 3 star wild.
    -Borin would be caught here with the Old Rod for a pretty simple reason. Flish are pretty rare here. Why should the worse fishing rod be able to catch them easily and guarantee an encounter?
    -Levels for the Good Rod were also reduced because both Borin and Flish are easier to encounter that way. Compare Flish's encounter rate when caught with a Good Rod (25%) compared to as a normal encounter (5%).

    There's still one problem with these wilds, though: every mon except Kyte is part Water. Any ideas on one more non-Water type we can add here?
     
  20. Phoenixsong

    Phoenixsong Is okay. Obby is often used as punishment.

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    That's fine by me, but I don't know that I like the breach in consistency of flish not being available via old rod at all. Maybe add a middle ground with flish at 2 stars? Alternatively, does flish have to appear on the regular wild list at all? Then you could have the weaker ones be semi-rare old rod catches and the stronger ones be rarer good rod catches and leave it at that.

    Honestly the old rod is supposed to be for painfully common pokémon anyway, so if the consensus is (is it?) that flish is old rod fodder then it shouldn't continue to be rare anywhere at all.

    As for another non-water wild, the only other real options are flying-types, and mostly only putting pipun and flickadee back at that. The only other option I can think of is chinchou as something relatively rare—it's still a water-type, but at least its secondary typing adds more diversity.
     

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